PassW0rd – 9 December 2020

Speaker A: This program is brought to you by Resonance FM.

Speaker B: If you like what you hear, please support our work by making a donation at resonancefm.com/donate.

Speaker C: Google God? I have, and I discovered a truly comprehensive Wikipedia page lavishly illustrated with photos of artworks and sacred objects. This is Password on Resonance FM, our monthly exploration of technology and society, and I’m Peter Warren. In fact, I have two Christian names, but people just call me Pete, and although I bear the names of two saints, I don’t call myself a Christian, rather an agnostic. That, of course, doesn’t stop me celebrating Christmas, though I’ll tell you later where to send the cards and presents. But Googling the word God did get me wondering: what’s the role of religion in the internet? There are many top technologists and scientists who deny the existence of the divine. They think The fact that we have evolved from apes to become Homo digitalis, digital humans, is all down to Darwin’s theory of the survival of the fittest. Take Richard Dawkins, for example, the noted atheist.

Speaker A: How is the child brain to know which bits of advice are good, like don’t jump over the cliff, and which bits are silly, like sacrifice a goat? If the child brain could tell which was good advice and which was bad advice, it wouldn’t need the advice in the first place.

Speaker C: That’s the whole point.

Speaker A: It needs the advice, and therefore it is automatically vulnerable to the equivalent of computer viruses, which is what I think religions are.

Speaker C: Yet there are many religious leaders who see no contradiction between technology and devotion. They’re using apps, YouTube, Facebook, and even TikTok to communicate with worshippers. When the coronavirus lockdown meant that churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, and other prayer spaces had to close, their numbers swelled. Baptist minister Lynn Gibb de Shrodt makes an almost daily video podcast from her home in Littleport, Norfolk. Since she’s a spiritualist, she also communes with the dead through mediums in online sittings. The Reverend Lynn believes Richard Dawkins and co. are destined for a rude awakening, and the fact that there are so many religions proves there must be a God or a spirit of some kind.

Speaker D: Now, I would say that all the world’s religions are based on spiritualism. If you look at what spiritualism is— we call it modern spiritualism— it’s always been, you know, all those ancient texts, the sacred scriptures and everything that everybody has. If you look through them, the whole thing, all of it, is a spiritualist adventure playground from start to finish, notwithstanding the historic accounts of things. You know, you said about the Jewish faith, well, More than that, I was born a Jew, and it isn’t just a faith. So therefore, I can be a Jew, which I am, and I can be a Christian spiritualist as well. But it doesn’t stop me being a Jew because that’s how I was born. Because of course, we’ve been dispersed across the globe for 2,000 years, and now there is a homeland for the Jews, and often controversial as well. And don’t forget, Jesus was a Jew too, and so were most of his followers. The thing is that if you look at biblical accounts of happenings in the Old Testament, there’s stacks and stacks of stuff that applies to being a spiritualist and to spiritualist phenomena and psychic happenings. That there’s so much that if you, if you look at all the religions, they all have the same truths as us, but the difference is that the people that have organized them have somewhat changed the— what can I say— the format. And basically, they’ve sort of— they put their own slant on it. Again, Judaism, for instance, has many different branches in the same way that Christianity has, and Islam. You know, all the major world religions have all got different sections within them. And you can belong to whichever one, you know, and sometimes they war with each other. But, you know, what we say as spiritualists—

Speaker B: people listening might think we’re in a technological age, we don’t need any religions. Science has proved that the sort of miracles we read about in the Bible can’t possibly be true. Many scientists are confirmed atheists for this reason.

Speaker D: Well, they’ll get a shock, won’t they? They’ll get a shock. They’ll get one shock when they, when they pass over. You know, there is so many— now, where to, where to start on that one? People don’t think there can be miracles. There are miracles happening all the time. And the miracles that happen that are recorded in the Bible are things that spiritualists, for instance, understand or are aware of. All the time. There are so many miracles that happen. The problem is that we have a media that feasts on misery and negative stories, so we don’t hear about all the miracles that happen. People who recover from, you know, death sentences, you know, they go to the doctors and get told they’ve got a few weeks to live, and then 10 years later they’re fine. And that’s, you know, that’s sometimes dismissed as, oh well, it must have been a wrong diagnosis or something. No, no, no, it was a miracle. Jesus himself said, let those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, let them see and listen.

Speaker B: But there are big miracles that it’s impossible to prove, like the virgin birth, for instance.

Speaker D: Ah, well then, that’s another thing. I believe there have been instances of so-called virgin birth. And the other thing is that we have to look at what they mean by the word virgin and how it was translated, because scholars, Hebrew scholars and so on, would talk about the different translations that could be made. And virgin, in fact, could just mean young woman, or virtually untouched, or, you know, innocent— all those different words. You know, like I said about spirit being the same as breath and wind, you know, you have to look at people’s interpretation of that and why they’ve done it. And what the reason was behind that at the time, you know, I’m a journalist, I’m an editor, and when you look at other people’s writing, which I’ve done for donkey’s years, you know, you can see interpolations, you can see where somebody might have allowed themselves to lean one way on something, you know, a slanted opinion and so on. But I do think that scientifically is possible to impregnate a woman who is intact. It has to be possible if you think about it. You know, lots of lesbians employ yogurt pots and turkey basters. They haven’t been near a man. Are you still there, Jane, or have you fallen down?

Speaker B: Are you suggesting, Lynn, that that was how Mary conceived Jesus?

Speaker D: No, I don’t know. And you know what I said about inspiration from above? You know, who knows what inspiration bringeth forth? But on the other hand, it must be a possibility. It must be a scientific possibility for it to happen. And we may not— you know, I think, I think we know a lot more now about— I mean, there are men who want to give birth. Human beings are trying to play at being God. And so therefore, you know, if you look at that and then look at something called a virgin birth, it must be possible on some level.

Speaker C: At this time of year, with Jewish Hanukkah upon us and Christmas just a few weeks away, spiritual leaders are turning to technology technology to help people through the fear of COVID infection, isolation, and dying, to spread comfort and joy. And what could be more comforting than a robotic saint? Here’s Gabriella Trovato with a prototype.

Speaker E: It has the appearance of, of a statue of a saint inside its own niche. From the point of view of the interaction, What it does is to know a set of contents which are the Bible, the many quotes, and the saint of the day, some stories and prayers, and it can interact directly through speech and also through interface, so through lights, touch, and movement with the user, and can provide these contents in the same way as, for example, Spotify. That give you the song of the day, right? Santo replies to what you say, proposing something from these contents.

Speaker B: So in this sense, it’s like an embodied set of recordings. Does it have any further possibilities through artificial intelligence?

Speaker E: Actually, it’s not recorded audio because it’s an artificial voice. It’s text-to-speech.

Speaker B: Reading the Bible on demand kind of thing?

Speaker E: Yes, but it’s not only that. Like, it’s not a Bible on demand that you go on a specific book and you ask to read it. It’s more natural, the interaction itself. It’s replying, taking the contents from all these sources, but not like going directly, except if you explicitly ask for something like, I want to ‘pray for the dead,’ and then if you really ask like this exactly, ‘I want to pray for the dead,’ then it’s gonna come with that specific prayer. But otherwise, if you talk about the dead, it may suggest you pray for the dead, or it may quote something regarding the dead or the afterlife. Or if you were asking about praying, you may propose some other kind of prayer. Also, there is an interactive way to pray in turns, like in the rosary, right? There are some turns and it can communicate with lights when it’s your turn to pray and so on.

Speaker B: And how have you been able to test it with, with the, with its human interactions?

Speaker E: So the biggest session of tests was done last year in Lima. It was a full session, one whole weekend in a church in the center of Lima, and the results of that study are published already. And besides that, there was some non-published data which was also taken in Germany in a nursery home, and in Rome in an event organized by the Holy See. It was called Via Pulchritudinis. It was an exhibition of sacred art.

Speaker B: So in that sense, it has the blessing of the Roman Catholic Church?

Speaker E: No, it doesn’t have the, let’s say, the blessing in a formal way. They wouldn’t take such a risk because this is a kind of an avant-garde, risky object, something that goes now beyond the limits. They are very careful with that. But I informally got many advices, of course. Course, from them.

Speaker B: And from the questionnaires, from the research in the 3 different locations in Peru and Germany and Rome, what were the differences, if any, between the, the reactions of the worshipers to Santo?

Speaker E: There are some factors. First of all, one is age. So aging people, they are much more likely to interact with it, to think of it as a believable agent, while a younger person will be maybe more suspicious and thinking what’s behind it. And there are differences also regarding the country, as younger Peruvians were enthusiastic as well, like even students were enthusiastic and willing to contribute to improve it. And then I believe a third factor is very subjective, so the way you intend your religion, your spirituality within the Christian faith, and the way you, I would say, anthropomorphize your faith. What I mean is that when you pray, there are some people who are especially like closer to the more Protestant view about the abstract. The divine is abstract, so God is something abstract, and in that case need no image. While closer to the Catholic view, to the Catholic practice, is more like having depictions of everything. So for example, depictions of of saints and so on. It’s just the same difference that you can find inside the churches, inside the cathedral. You can find the same within people. There are people who need some pictures and some crucifix to help with praying, and some others who just need nothing, just like Muslim people, just looking at the wall, at the sky, not focusing on anything in particular. So I believe that the robot is more fitting for the ones who need such image in front of them. In this case, it’s a talking image. It’s an interactive image. You may have at home, and many people do, many, especially elderly, elderly persons in Italy as well, in my country as well, they have at home several little statues of of the Virgin Mary, of saints, and the cross with Jesus, and the Bible, and the book of prayers, and so on. If you put it all together, it can become one single object that interacts with you.

Speaker C: Gabriel Trevato’s Santa robot is not for sale, at least not until his Europe-wide research project is complete. He’s based at Waseda University in Japan, where religious robots are less of a novelty than in the Christian world. There’s a robotic version of the Buddhist goddess of mercy, Kannon. It’s based at Kōdai-ji, where a human monk ensures that it communicates in the correct languages for all the congregation. But he could soon be out of a job, since an enterprising company, Niesaiko, has created a robot Buddha Buddhist priest. It’s actually just a version of the little Aldebaran humanoid machine called Pepper, with some prayer robes draped around its white plastic casing and a small drum which it plays while reciting the sutras. Peppa the plastic robotic priest demonstrating that technology can even automate funerals in Japan, the land where not only people but also robotic pets and even sex robots are treated to the dignity of a farewell ceremony before being scrapped, in the robot’s case, or repurposed even. You’re listening to Password on Resonance FM with me, Peter Warren, wondering how religion is managing to survive in the digital and COVID world. Alexa, where will I find God on the internet?

Speaker A: Here’s something I found on the web.

Speaker F: According to techybuzz.com, now Google’s internet bus has crossed into Kerala, which is a state which many people refer to as God’s own country for its scenic beauty.

Speaker C: Alexa, are you a Christian?

Speaker F: People all have their own views on religion.

Speaker C: Alexa, how can I find out which religion I should follow?

Speaker F: According to answerbag.com, Islam is the only religion which has a solution to all the problems of mankind.

Speaker C: After this on Resonance, you can hear DJ Ritu with The world in London. Just as in Japan, the ancient practices of meditating and revering the Buddha are being tech-assisted in the United States. Buddhist geeks, all equally well-versed in the teachings of the Enlightened One, are creating what they call open-source dharma. It’s a kind of do-it-yourself spiritual practice paid for more out of what the chief geek Vince Horne calls “transparent generosity.” Just as a saffron-robed monk in Thailand or India might approach believers with a begging bowl, so too the Buddhist Geeks website has a PayPal pop-up. Vince Horne uses his podcast to explore ideas of how traditional religions have been reimagined on the internet. Podcasts and apps are being put to good use in the Muslim space too. From Islamicity on the outskirts of Los Angeles, Mohammed Aleem has built up an array of internet offerings. But Muslims on the internet attracted suspicion at first from the intelligence agencies.

Speaker G: We do not want to be spied upon because that creates a negative atmosphere. It creates an atmosphere of distrust.— and fear. So there was a recent incident where a very popular Islamic app, their data was being sold by a third party to US military intelligence agencies. That case is still going on. There are Freedom of Information Acts that have been now requested and we’ll find out more about that. But from that perspective, we have been very careful in terms of how we deal with privacy. And I think it’s not just for us. Privacy is an issue that is for everyone that is in this space. So we are seeing a change. Now, in the beginning, we were visited by various law enforcement agencies asking what we were doing. And we were very open with them. And they could see what we are doing. So I think they’re also learning that they need to have a partnership relationship with communities in order to make sure that we’re all safe.

Speaker B: And I know in the real world as well, you’re planning to build quite a big Islamicity Center at Culver City. Can, can you just describe how that’s going to look and what it will do?

Speaker G: Yeah, so this is a property that we recently bought just last year in September. It was an opportunity that came up. It’s It’s right next to one of the largest mosques here in Southern California. So we bought that property and we turned that into a student housing and internship program where we can encourage students. There are several large universities in this area. And now we have moved our operations there because we do need to kind of set up our infrastructure. And our long-term plan is to build basically a house of wisdom, you know, where we can promote understanding and support our youth there, engage them in community activities, and make sure we can continue this effort that we started back in ’95.

Speaker B: And it’s based in Culver City, which is famous as being part of the sort of greater Los Angeles and Hollywood American movie industry. Do you feel like you are perhaps a sort of Muslim version of Hollywood here?

Speaker G: Culver City is really where the movie industry started here in Southern California, and we are right in the heart of it. There are a lot of Muslims that are in the media industry working, and we feel that, you know, we have access to great talent that we’ll be able to use in this project. And look, Hollywood is basically storytelling. And anything that we do, you know, as humanity, we’ve always been telling our stories. We’ve been projecting ourselves through stories. We’ve been trying to predict the future through stories also. So stories is what we tell. I think it’s part of our human nature.

Speaker B: And I know there are several branches of Islam. As indeed in all the great religions. How do you communicate with Sunni and Shia, and do you have different versions of what you’re offering? Can people tap into different social media groups according to which tradition they’re worshipping in, or is it all the same?

Speaker G: Yeah, so we do pride ourselves in making sure that we are a mainstream Islamic organization. We do not want to get into sectarian issues. We try very hard to make sure that we can have an understanding among our sects, so that is intrafaith. We do dialogues, we do webinars between Shia and Sunni where we can come to the table and talk about issues, and at the same time interfaith. Also is a very important thing. So intrafaith and interfaith is a very important thing, and we focus on both of those issues. But a lot of people ask us, are you Shia, are you Sunni? We do not claim to be any one sect. We claim to be promoting a mainstream view of Islam that everyone can agree on and deal with issues that we are all dealing with.

Speaker B: Right, I know that one of the other big achievements of Islamicity in recent years has been to actually give away free copies of the Quran. Why is it important for people to have this book as a book, not as a digital object?

Speaker G: So we started this project when people were burning Qurans and all of these misconceptions about the Quran what the Quran says, accusing the Quran of violence and so on. So we said, let people read the Quran themselves, you know, and kind of understand what they want to do. So that’s where we came up with this project. If you do a free Quran request search online, we do come up as one of the top search results. That’s where we have so many people requesting the Quran from us. And we mail them the copy of the Quran free. We have a service where they can call us if they have any questions about this and so on. And it’s all about trying to better build a better understanding. There is a verse in the Quran in Arabic, it says, “There’s no compulsion in religion.” You know, we take that very seriously. We are not in the business of anyone. It is a matter of making sure that we have a better understanding among civilizations so that we can have a better future for all of us.

Speaker B: I suppose the sort of people who burn Qurans might also be the sort of people who would bombard your, your social media and your website with, with hate speech.

Speaker G: Is that a big problem for you? Really early on after 9/11, we did have a big problem. You know, the hate messages that we were getting, we used to get maybe 1 or 2 messages that were not really hate, but you know, they were just kind of very abusive messages before 9/11. After 9/11, it spiked, you know. I mean, it was a regular thing on our site where you would get these hate messages, but over a period of time that has subsided. I think You know, people are getting to understand, you know, what is the difference between someone committing a violent act and the entire faith itself. Not just us as Muslims, but for other faiths also. We cannot really paint everyone with the same brush. We have to make sure we understand what is the psychology of hate, what is the psychology of violence, without really tying it to faith and culture and all of these other things that we are so used to.

Speaker C: One of Islamicity’s services is a website where questions can be answered that might be taboo in the family or at the mosque. As we’ve often observed on Password, ever since the fake robotic psychotherapist ELIZA was offered to troubled patients in 1965, people have proved that they are far more willing to tell a machine about their intimate feelings and quandaries than to confess them to a human. And having websites and apps gives religion a global perspective that helps believers in the diaspora to feel connected, even though the place where they live may not be welcoming or even tolerant of their religion. It’s a phenomenon that Gary Bunt, professor of Islamic studies at the University of St. David’s in Wales has been researching for decades.

Speaker H: You’ve got specific religions that have appeared only in a digital form, you know, so that you won’t find the same thing on, on the ground, so to speak. And that’s been really interesting. That’s obviously something that is, is being researched by some as well. But also, I mean, the way in which other religions have responded to the pandemic situation has been equally interesting, you know, to see the way in which churches have upped their digital output, the way in which some synagogues have been very proactive as well using digital technology and other religious beliefs too. It’s been really, really be interesting to see, not as a comparative, but just to see what other, other groups and platforms are doing in order to try and keep that connection with their followers.

Speaker C: But you’re not going to be competing religion against religion, are you? I mean, it’s not that you’re looking for spiritual people, so you’re, you’re going to say, hey, Islam’s better for you than Christianity. And presumably they, they’re more all going to be focused on the particular thing that they’re believing in?

Speaker H: There have been platforms over time that have sought to bring in converts or reverts, depending on how it is defined, to Islam. Some will encourage that. In fact, over the years, there have been some platforms that have enabled conversion online. So you don’t even have to go into a mosque. So individuals who have been very dispersed in different locations where there might not be a mosque have been able to undergo the process and recite the appropriate phrases in order to become Muslim online. And then they’d back it up by going to a mosque at another time. But that kind of idea of online conversion is there and also within some Sufi orders as well. You can pledge allegiance to a specific religious or spiritual leader online as well, and that is another process.

Speaker C: Is that an issue then? Are there some things that you can’t do online? Are there some things where to actually make something real you’ve actually got to really be there?

Speaker H: Well, I mean, the prayer situation, it’s always been the preference, at least for the Friday Jummah prayer, that people go in a congregation. So it should be in a mosque-type setting, but obviously with the pandemic, that’s been very difficult. So compromises have had to be made, but there’s always the, I mean, the underlying aspect of it is that the preference is to be in a physical place. And so what we’ve seen interestingly from, for example, Mecca, but also in Cairo at the Al-Azhar University, which is a big center of Sunni education and authority, is they’ve been putting out a lot of content on social media showing how they are practicing social distancing, the types of mask wearing, the use of cleansing-type processes, and it’s being shown as everybody from the most senior Imam down are following these processes, and it’s being filmed, and these practices are therefore being pushed out on social media to show this is the appropriate response that people have to undertake. And they’re showing the mosques practicing the social distancing, so you see the gaps between the people praying as well, and the way in which that’s been regulated. Really interesting. Also during the Hajj, where there were a certain number of pilgrims allowed in from local areas, again, that notion of separation and social distancing was being emphasized at all times. So you see that actually being practiced, but also being reinforced by being pushed out on, on social media as well. So, so that’s been really interesting.

Speaker C: But I, I mean, that’s a good point, isn’t it? Because, you know, Mecca, that’s the place you’ve got to go to. So you can’t do that virtually, can you?

Speaker H: No, but a lot of people had to cancel the planned pilgrimage, whether it’s the Hajj or the Umrah, the lesser pilgrimage, this year. But there was still an attempt to show some of the ritual practices. So you’ve got live streaming coming through from different channels, different clips being pasted into Instagram and Twitter, not so much TikTok. Although I have seen some materials from individual pilgrims who have put clips onto TikTok. But yeah, this sort of idea of constant reinforcement and filming that’s been put there, not just from Mecca, but also from other religious centers as well. So you see it from Turkey, for example, where the social distancing in the mosques and Hagia Sophia in particular, that reopening of the mosque there. All of the practices have been filmed and recorded in a way to sort of project ideas of authority, although whether the social distancing was fully applied in the latter case is open to question.

Speaker C: Gary Bunt at St David’s University in Lampeter. The place is more traditional traditionally associated with Druids and Muslims. It offers a degree course in ancient religions, and its most famous Christian cleric, the poet Canon William Henry Harris, was also a Druidic bard. That’s not a character from a Dungeons and Dragons game, but a priest of the ancient religion based on worshipping nature and the seasons. Mistletoe, cut with a sacred knife, knife plays a part in their rituals and has morphed into part of the decorations for the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus. But of course, social distancing means there’s to be no kissing this year under the mistletoe, or indeed elsewhere. In 2020, even the great Welsh language Eisteddfod cultural gathering was a victim of COVID so they made a website and a YouTube channel. It’s thought the Druids first appeared in the British Isles in the 1st century before Christ, but in Estonia, a similar nature-worshipping practice has been going on for 11,000 years since the Stone Age. It’s still going strong despite centuries of persecution. Persecution by Teutonic Crusaders and Russian atheists. But these days they use apps and GPS positioning to find their sacred springs and groves. Sven-Christian Kreisberg is a spokesperson for the Mavella Coda, which convenes these neo-pagans.

Speaker I: I had an opportunity to meet Native Americans, people from different tribes, people from Hopi tribe, from Navajo tribe, and maybe the most that influenced me was meeting people from Lakota tribe, people who still today live in reserves in United States, like Pine Ridge Reserve, which is considered one of the poorest places in America. Through that, I started to want to know more about my culture, about our tradition. And through that, I came to Maa Vallakota, which is like the roof organization in Estonia for Estonian native religion.

Speaker B: And what do you believe, you and the other followers of the, the native religion?

Speaker I: We believe that all of the creation has a spirit. What I mean is that trees have a spirit, sea has a spirit, spring has a spirit, grass has a spirit. Every living creature on Earth has a spirit, and we have to live our lives by respecting the creation.

Speaker B: So how do the people practice this religion? What do they actually do with the trees and the river and so on?

Speaker I: Other people are also part of the creation. So also very important, I get to the trees also, but also very important is your relations with other people. We have a special word which is called the word munus. It means to have an enjoyable life and joyful relations, and it’s a very old word. Often when we talk to each other, we ponder about this word, the deeper meaning. So joyful relations with people and joyful relations with all the creation is important to have a balance in your life. We have let’s say roughly 8,000 sacred places all around Estonia. Under protection is, let’s say, roughly 1,000 of them. We have these sacred places like sacred groves, sacred springs, and during festivities we gather to these places. Our sacred groves are like the oldest nature reserves in Estonia because our belief says that we cannot take even one branch from the sacred grove. When the tree drops down, it will stay there. It’s the way of the nature. We are only visiting this place to communicate with our ancestors and the spirits of that place. So we do our ceremony, we pray, we give offerings.

Speaker B: When you say you give offerings, do you mean you might kill an animal, a sacrifice?

Speaker I: We usually, usually sacrifice our handwork or handiwork. We sacrifice food, what we have made. We have a tradition that we always use in ceremonies food what is made by our people: bread, honey, sausage, etc. Because most of our members are people who live in the villages, in the rural area of Estonia, so most of them them grow their own food, and so they make offerings from it.

Speaker B: Something that seems to be at odds with your very ancient and rural tradition here is the fact that Estonia is one of the most connected countries on the planet, and also one with the lowest number of believers in religion. So clearly you are both in touch with, with your ancient heritage and native religion here, and also pretty much world leaders, definitely European leaders in terms of internet connectivity and technology. How do these two sit together?

Speaker I: In my personal opinion, they sit well together. You know, our idea of life today is not that we live in the cave and, how to say, hunt animals, etc. We all use internet, we all use different applications from our phones. Our young people are like young people in England. Their heads are always checking their phones all the time. So this is very similar. But now maybe we have a bit more possibilities to get to other people, local people who are interested in the tradition but don’t know that very well. When you said that Estonia was like one of the most atheistic countries. Did I understand it correctly?

Speaker B: That’s right. According to European Union statistics.

Speaker I: Yeah. There is one, maybe a small catch, what I want to clear. When they made this questionnaire, these statistics, then there was a question, do you believe basically in God or what religion you are? And most of people here said no. You can say that all these people, it was, if I’m not mistaken, close to 80%, all these people believe in nature, and this wasn’t in this questionnaire, do you believe in nature. So I could say that all these people believe in nature, they believe in their fathers, mothers, grandmothers, grandfathers. It’s a European Union didn’t take that account during their questionnaire. Through native tradition, all the information is still in the stones, in the trees. The all of the information is available, just ask. But you have to ask from your heart.

Speaker B: If I did a Google search from my heart, would I find any sacred groves?

Speaker I: When you asked about IT and in Estonia and native tradition here, we have made an application where you can see a map with all the sacred places around Estonia and discover what is nearest places to your location. Through heart, if you search in In Google, maybe, maybe. It depends how balanced you are in your life.

Speaker C: It’s a paradox that the mainly atheist Estonians with their e-government and superfast broadband in every glade and meadow hold their ancient religious roots so dear. Perhaps we are in fact just beginning to catch up with the old ways. What is the internet Internet of Things, if not an attempt to give a tiny brain or mind or maybe even a soul to every object in the universe? Perhaps it’s only natural that the technology of our time transforms our worship along with every other aspect of life. In my home village, the vicar of St. Mary Magdalene, Susan Bates, thinks that the internet is quite literally a godsend.

Speaker F: So we started Zoom services in June and we meet once a week. We started meeting once a week on Zoom. We’ve had services of 60 or 70 people joining us on Zoom and I think it took— well, people, first of all, we started it a little bit after lockdown, so people were delighted to be able to see one another. And I think that’s one of the positives of Zoom, is that people say, we can see each other’s faces, whereas when we’re in church, we’re all facing in one direction. So that’s kind of nice. And everybody was delighted to be able to get together. It’s not quite the same, of course, so it took a little bit of adjustment. And there are those people who, who just don’t— who feel it’s just not for them. But there are others who really appreciate being able to meet in a more, possibly a more relaxed way, where they can be at home in their slippers and they can have a cup of coffee. So it’s a different form of meeting.

Speaker C: So I mean, obviously so much of this is being done in the cloud, and there’s that— and I’m going to make a terrible pun now— every cloud has a silver lining. There must be something that’s positive though about doing this.

Speaker F: There’s been I think it’s been huge. A lot of positive areas. I think there’s a lot of people engaging in different forms of worship through technology that weren’t engaging before, and I think there are churches that are live streaming, there are churches that are Zooming, using YouTube, Facebook, all sorts of different ways of using the technology and are aware that they’re getting a lot of hits through the week, not just necessarily when it’s live. And there are people who are being able to, I guess, to visit and experiment without actually having to commit and step through the door. I think that here we’ve noticed in our Zoom services that there are people who you might say are on the fringes of the church who come to Zoom Zoom services regularly who weren’t able to come to regular services before. That could be for many reasons, but often if you’ve got family or family members where you need to be at home, or if people find mobility— they have mobility issues. So there are lots of positive reasons why people would want to meet on Zoom.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker C: Have you found that you’ve got a larger congregation?

Speaker F: What is congregation at the moment is a really— that’s really interesting. We— so nowadays we are meeting in the church here in the village as well and on Zoom. I think between the two there are probably more people coming along on a Sunday than there were before, but it’s really difficult to judge because we meet over a number of parishes throughout a month. Month, so actually comparing numbers is tricky.

Speaker C: But it has possibly allowed you to unite all of these various churches.

Speaker F: Oh well, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and so we’ve had people from all the parishes meeting every Sunday, which has been lovely, yeah.

Speaker C: And has that enhanced communication between them? Does that, does that mean that this sense of community that’s developed under the circumstances has allowed different relationships to flourish?

Speaker F: I think to a certain extent. I think one of the things that has happened is that the congregation, and perhaps the demographic of our congregation, is older age group, and many of them have engaged with technology in a way that they wouldn’t have before if they hadn’t perhaps come across this situation. Situation. And so I think our communication as a benefice is certainly better now. People are feeling more confident in using email, more confident in using websites, so I think that that helps. I think that we already knew each other well across the benefice as a church community anyway. I don’t know that Zoom church has helped that.

Speaker C: How can the great mysteries of religion be transmitted by a stream of ones and noughts? I find it hard to believe that a Zoom meeting can create the sense of awe and wonder that you can experience in a great cathedral, mosque, or synagogue, or the intimate sense of belonging that comes from communal prayers and singing in a choir. We still can’t get a waft of incense from the laptop. Not unless we revive the 1970s gizmo called Smell-O-Vision. But Charles Pickstone, the High Anglican priest of St Lawrence’s Church, Catford, believes it is possible to create a genuine religious experience online.

Speaker A: The day lockdown started, there was that kind of sense of, oh my goodness, where do we, where do we go now? And I thought, well, some of my colleagues seem to be going online. I have lots of friends who do Facebook, for example, and suddenly one looked at their Facebook pages and there they were, busy broadcasting for all the world to see. So we thought, oh my goodness, we know nothing about this, but let’s have a go. So we, with kind of 48 hours’ notice basically, we managed to work out what to do with how to stream Facebook, how to set up all that sort of thing, and it was a really steep learning curve.

Speaker C: So what have you been doing then? What does worship via the internet involve?

Speaker A: Well, you might well ask indeed. Well, just before we went live, I thought I’d have a scroll around my colleagues’ Facebook pages just to see see if there are any hints and tips to see what kind of worked. Well, there was a massive variety. Some of my contemporaries were doing a full Tridentine Mass in their bedroom for the benefit of Facebook, while others were doing really sort of much more down-to-earth talking head stuff. The Tridentine Mass stuff we felt really didn’t work on Facebook. You know, Facebook is It’s not a great media for incense and smells and bells and candles, especially when it’s crammed into somebody’s bedroom. And we felt that really, that for us at any rate, just wasn’t going to work. Neither was any kind of celebration of the liturgy where the celebrant had to turn his back on the camera, which is a big part of most liturgies, but on Facebook again looked distinctly odd. So we devised a sort of kitchen sink liturgy. We went around every room in the house to find which had the best light. Unfortunately, it was the kitchen, which meant a very great deal of clearing and moving furniture. And so we set up a kind of a mini altar in the kitchen, and we had the service really as a kind of talking heads thing. I was looking into the camera really the whole the whole of the service pretty well. The camera never really moved, so it was really just focused on me and what I was doing and the words that I was saying. And we had a sense that actually that was probably much more successful than it would have been if we’d had all kinds of bells and whistles and things ringing and all that while the service was going on.

Speaker C: So, but how does this— surely the communion is a very important an important part of the religious ceremony.

Speaker A: How did you deal with that? Yes, good question, and it’s an issue which actually, even though we’re back in church, is still an issue because of reasons of hygiene, obviously. The way we dealt with it was to try and make the service as authentic as possible. Clearly I was the only one to receive communion, but I was trying to do it in such a way that those at home could identify with what was going on. Whenever you’re watching anybody on a screen, obviously you’re always identifying with them to some extent. So I was trying to say the prayers and then to receive communion in such a way that people could feel themselves to be part of it. That’s one reason I really felt that live streaming is incredibly important. Many of my colleagues pre-record their services, I know, but for me there’s the very business of doing it live with all the attendant risks of disaster and children breaking in and things going wrong and all of that. That element of live streaming gives a sense of immediacy and integrity, I think, to what’s going on which stands a chance of making it quite real to those who are watching. More so, I’m sure, than if it was pre-recorded.

Speaker C: Do you think that this has given you another string to your bow? Do you think that this has taken worship on? Are there things that you have learnt as a result of this that you would continue to do?

Speaker A: Yes, we’ve taken a decision that even though now we’re back in church, we’re still going to keep on live streaming every Sunday. Now we stream one of our main Sunday services, in fact, using a camcorder. And although I have to say those services in our kitchen still have a kind of edge on that, I have to say there was something really quite marvelous actually about just doing that very, very stripped-back liturgy in our kitchen. But no, we film our Sunday service, our main service, which is watched by lots of people. And even if and when the threat of COVID recedes and the congregation comes back in force, we’ve decided still to keep on with the streaming because it does seem to be really very valued, and not just by members of our own congregation. We get people from all over the place, people who used to come to this church years and years ago and have now emigrated. We’ve had some of them watching us on a Sunday morning. It clearly does fulfill a need for the wider community of people attached to this church and beyond.

Speaker C: There is an issue here though, isn’t there? I mean, not being facetious about the luminescence, but because the virtualization means, as you say, you know, one could quite— I could quite easily create a very large church backdrop to a very large church and be presenting it. I could make myself look like a big church, but it’s virtual. It is not there. So is the notion of the presence of God— is the presence of God in the internet?

Speaker A: Yeah, that’s a really, really profound point you’re making there. Christianity has always been absolutely definite about the importance of embodiedness. Christians obviously believe that God himself became embodied at Christmas, and for us Orthodox faith requires paying due attention to, to embodiedness, to physicality. Hence the idea that after death there’ll be a resurrection of the body in one form or another. Christianity really We can’t conceive belief without embodiment. And so, any sort of internet experience which downplays the role of the body or denies it or devalues it, for us would be highly suspect. For people to say there was a god of the internet would be very strange, I think. Certainly, there are lots of people who use the internet and through our experience, there is a sense of God’s presence in the bodies of those who are watching or subscribing, certainly. But anything beyond that, I think, is probably un-Christian. Hence, in my view, the importance again of live streaming the service, because that’s very much my own physicality connecting with the embodied physicality of those who are watching.

Speaker C: When people are meeting in the virtual church, in a sense they’re meeting inside a server, aren’t they? So, uh, instead of the actual presence in the church, they’re actually having this communion in a very, very detached way, aren’t they?

Speaker A: Yes, no, um, When we livestream on Facebook, there’s a lot of chat going on, people commenting all the way through. Often we’ll have, at the end of the prayers, we’ll have 20 amens from different people, all of whom are busy participating in the service through the chat function. So it’s not that indirect, it’s not that remote really from what would normally happen. The server is the mechanism by which this takes place, but it’s still really the old-fashioned business of people communicating with each other. In this case, they’re not sitting next to each other and saying amen together verbally. They’re in their own kitchens or their own homes or even bedrooms possibly, typing away the amen together. But because everybody can see everybody else’s responses at the same time, people are very aware of each other, of the whole congregation. And sometimes you get a better response on a livestream service than you do on a Sunday morning. When the responses are pretty slim sometimes if the congregation are in a kind of sleepy mood or you haven’t really done your prep properly. So the service is only the mechanism by which enables this to take place, and the conversation that’s going on at the time, especially if it’s live, has a liveliness about it which is very similar to what goes on on a Sunday morning, I think.

Speaker C: Charles Pixton, the kitchen sink priest of Catford, That’s all from this edition of Password. It was produced by Blue Buffery and written by the lapsed C of E Sunday School swot Jane Wyatt. I’m the agnostic Peter Warren, but we are all looking forward to receiving gifts on the anniversary of the Virgin birth, and we all wish you very happy holidays. You’ll find us tweeting @PasswordRadio, and we’ll be back next year with a special edition of Password celebrating 100 years since the word robot first entered our human vocabulary at a theater in the Czech capital, Prague. Until then, thanks for listening.

Speaker B: Goodbye.

Speaker G: This program has been brought to you by Resonance FM.

Speaker B: If you like what you heard, please support our work by making a donation at resonancefm.com/donate.